mini-van has over 330,000 miles original miles by original owner. Is there a diagnostic test available that would detect the allowable/spec decibel noise level in the car when driving in the freeway or street? If it was found to be out of spec could the source of the noise be identified. Bearings have been repalced by dealer and both dealers have advised tires are good. Rear shocks have been repalced by sears even though car had already passed the suspension test. Muffler and catalytic converter have also been replaced by midas and the tune up performed by dealer. My daily driving with this noise gets me a headache and an earache.Help
The noise is loud enough to give you headache and earache, WOW. Does the noise bother others too? If the noise is causing head and ear aches a decimeter is not necessary to confirm the noise is to loud.
Bearing and tires are the most common causes of noise, as well as brakes/rotors (although not typically enough to cause a headache,etc.)
I find it hard to believe an exhaust leak would go undetected this long.
It seems the noise is most likely coming from the transmission/drivetrain. You could go to a shop that could put the vehicle on a dyno to help isolate what area of the vehicle the noise is coming from.
What area of the vehicle does the sound seem to originate? At what speed does the sound occur, and stop?
New User -
one dealer technician drove the vehicle and said it was the tires. The sears technician drove it and said it was normal. s are not as sensitive to it but from 25mph on up, I can detect it every morning going to work and today I did 160 mile and my ears are still ringing from the experience. Could the noise level be from poor insulation of the hood which was replaced after the vehicle was stolen and recovered and the body work done at the dealership did not take this into account. Unfortunately this has been going on for awhile I can not pinpoint the exact start date except that technicians have yet to identify the source. I see somewhere thatat the coach interior noise level should be below 78 decibels in general but I do not know what it should be specifically for my car if that helps?
When I start it it starts up great but then it turns off after one or two seconds. It doesn't sound like it's dying, it just turns off. It did that a few times, and now it won't even start anymore. This happened a few months ago, and we got a new battery and replaced the ignition switch and it seemed to fix the problem. We haven't driven it the last few months, and when I went out to start it it was doing it again.
First of all turn on your head lights to see if the batt still has a good charge or try to jump start it.
Will it run when you jump it? does it start and still shut off or only when you disconnect the cables?
You will need to check your fuel pressure relay and fuel pressure to see if it is getting the proper amount of fuel
I hope this helps
New User -
I turned on the lights on honked the horn and all that jazz to make sure the battery still had juice and they worked fine. I haven't jumped it this time, but when I had the problem a few months ago i could sometimes get it started with a jump, but it would work for a while and then not work again.
Take out the battey and have it load tested it sounds like the battery has a bad cell
You need to jump it once more and see if it continues to run as long as the jumper cables are connected and then disconnect the cables to see if it quits
I believe you have a bad alternator
So lets work on the battery for now to see if it is not still holding a charge
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager Electrical / Lighting Systems
New User Asked -
Hello...Brake lights will not operate...no fuses blown, but initially all back lights (window, both rears) were blown....is there a relay or switch I should check?
The relay is probly fine you should check the bulbs of the brake lights as on may be shorted out
New User -
As i initially stated they were blown but have been replaced...even if they were shorted out...SOMETHING would have shorted them out!
Hi, Looking at the exterior lights wiring diagram I see no relay involved. The brake light switch is powered by Fuse #13 (20 amp) in the Power Distribution Center.
With no fuse bad one would not expect to find a short present. The turn signals use a seperate bulb from the brake lights. Over time it is possible for the brake light bulbs to burn out and the driver not know it.
You stated after replacing the bulbs the brake lights are not working. Check the brake light switch above the brake pedal. Power from the fuse should be present on the Pink/DkBlu wire.
When the brake pedal is pressed the switch should close and output power to the brake lights on the Wht/Tan wire. Does it?
If yes, please advise. If no, replace the switch.
New User -
Thanks for the succinct response...it is sincerely appreciated.
You are welcome. Please let me know what else you need.
In recent days while idling the oil light will blink on/off with alarm ding while it appears that the idle speed drops from about 700 RPM to near 550 RPM. Bumping the accelerator to up the RPMs a bit stops the alarm and makes the oil light go off.
No problem 'till yesterday evening. I had dropped my spouse off at a meeting with no problem, returning home, two hours later the van wouldn't run. It tries to start but won't run.
Hold down the accelerator slightly to see if it will start. If this doesn't make any difference hold the accelerator down farther, farther, etc to the point of trying start while held to the floor.
Let me know if this allows the engine to start or not, and we'll continue.
New User -
it's starting up normally, now ...
don't know what the nostart was all about ...
I drove it around for a while, parked, it started up ...
I'm gonna start it up one more time, now, we'll see ...
It started up, don't know what is up
What you can do at this point is visit an AutoZone or Advance Auto and they'll check the computer trouble codes free of charge. Let me know which if any trouble codes they find.
Note- Make sure they check for history and pending trouble codes.
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager Electrical / Lighting Systems
New User Asked -
When headlight knob is turned to make headlights to come on; the left blinker indicator on dash stays on and after a mile down the road a bell chime comes on and continously stays on until the light are turned off.
Turn the parking lights on and check all bulbs to see if you have one blown/shorted.
New User -
All the bulbs are fine - this problem does tend to be worse in warmer weather, over 30 degrees f.
Joe's Garage -
Turn on your left blinker with the ignition in the run position and see if all the bulbs on left side blinks the same and when you turn on the right side. You need to look really close at how bright the lites are, look for one that is either dimmer or flashes different from what it looks like on right side. Also turn on 4 way flashers and with ignition off, with running lites on and also try with running lites off and check for difference in brightness, or flashing different then right side. Problem with bulb, rusty socket, or bad ground causes this problem. Just need to find which left side lamp is causing it. Also does left blinker indicator on dash lite up with just running lites on?
New User -
yes, the blinker stays 'on' with just the running lights on - when the car isn't running, the left blinker blinks much brighter with the lights off. i've checks all the bulbs, they're fine - all the sockets seem to be fine too. The electronics diagram indicates that the ground is G103 - do you know where that is?
Joe's Garage -
The ground can be bad anywhere between the bulb itself and G103. You need to hook a test wire to the ground wire a few inches from the socket to a known good ground and see if the connection at the socket and also bulb are good. If the light works correct then you can look for loose connection from your test point to G103 location, or just add test wire as additional ground. If test wire doesn't change how the light works then problem is still at socket or bad ground on side of bulb. Bulb can look good and still have bad internal connection. Use a known good bulb from right side if you don't have one. There is three connections on socket. Ground, Left Turn, And Running lites. Make sure you hook test wire to the Ground wire only then to known good Chassis ground.
Establish a new ground... quickest fix. That ground should go to other things also.
Both radiator fans quit. What would be the most likely causes?
Bruce Kit -
Check the easy item first the fuse. Then check coolant level, it must be full for them to work. Then check the sensor beside the thermostat.(top rad hose, at the engine)
With key in on position, unplug the sensor and touch the wire end to a good ground. If fans come on, the fans are good, as are the fan relay etc. Replace the sensor, a common auto parts place item, the size of you thumb!
1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager Ignition System Malfunction Happens always Always
New User Asked -
I am getting no fire on from the coil pack. When I check the triger at the coil pack connection with a test light connected to the pos. bat terminal , I get blinking on 2 of the 2 poles, and a constant light on one of the poles and the B+ pole. I checked the auto shutdown relay, and fuses . I was getting an error code 21, but after removing the Neg. batt wire to replace the coil pack the errors cleared. the only thing I am getting on the key switch error check is 12 and 55.
Which engine do you have?
Does the fuel pump run (in tank) when you crank the engine?
New User -
1996 grand voyager, 3.3ltr. 50 psi on the fuel rail, replaced camshaft sensor,Crank shaft sensor,coil pack. When checking coil pack trigger at the coil pack B+ stays on and one other pin stays grounded. the other 2 strobe with the test probe.
New User -
unless you know of anything else I am leaning towards the PCM,
Be sure to check the coil itself, and the wiring- especially to the crank sensor. It is very hard to isolate the PCM as the problem, mainly because trouble shooting instructions can falsely condemn them.
New User -
Douglas, have you not read the information I left... The Crank sensor and coil were replaced. I Thank you for your time, but you seem to know less than me about this
It sounds like it may be an ECM or distributor(crank sensor) problem.Kind of hard to read on this side of the screen.You say you already replaced coil and sensor,but is power getting to them?If power gets to the coil then the distributor allocates spark to each cylinder.Both these areas need to be checked.By one side staying grounded tells me a false negative is being either sent to the ECM or the ECM is just not functioning correctly.
1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager Fuel System Malfunction When driving Always
New User Asked -
1996 Grand Voyager. Have the fuel sensor going off, however tank is full. Will go off/on/off/on until 3/4 tank then fine. The van runs the all of sudden qiuts. It happens mostly when running at highway then going inot town, the car will jsut stop all of sudden. It will restart rght away, bt tis can happen 5x time or more.
I have checke the MAP & Throttle sensors, they check ok as per the voltage/manuel check.
However I still get the low barametric press code.
I also get the 42, 66, 66,(yes 2 66 codes) 12, 31. I think the fuel pump may be a problem, but I was told by the dealer that he PCM module can go out in stages. Is that trueabout the PCM module. The dealer can not find the problem and the codes don't tell them anything of how to fix.
I have 157k miles and the wife still likes it, but I'm stumped as how to fix it.
Help before I have a divorce.......
New User -
I did the code check by the 5x key dance.
The list of codes are 31 ,61, 66 (twice), 42,12 and 55. I disconnected battery to clear all codes so I disregard the 12 & 55.
The 31 code has 3 different result s I read the haynes manual. aommon factore is the evap purge.
The 42 code has a cuple of dfferent options as well.
The 66 code(s) have me clueless as to what hey are.
The mechanic said there was short in the fuel relay and that there was a 30 sec delay in the sensor. No clue to what that means.
Bottom line if I replace the fuel pump, will that cure the mystery shutdown or will I be throwing money at sensors until all of them are replaced? Or do I need to replace the PCM module.
OR do I need to do all of the above???
These codes can be confusing.
31- Evap/Purge solenoid concerns (from two sources)
42- Multiple listings, including ASD relay (which can cause the van to quit) and the fuel level sender (which you've noted a problem with)
61- Apparent Baro fault
66- This is a bus fault (communication)
What you really need to do is get the actual OBD2 codes read with a scanner. Advance Auto or Autozone will pull these codes free of charge. Have them pull the codes then clear them. Make sure to the codes down. Then test drive the van until the engine light comes on again or it stalls. Then have the codes read again. Some of the codes you have may have been there for a long time and may not be related to the problem. The codes that appear when the stall or driveability problems occur are what we are most interested in.
Let me know the actual alphanumeric trouble codes they find. Ex- P0300, p0400, etc. These codes should be much more precise than the two digit codes you have found.
1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager Drive Train / Driveline
New User Asked -
1996 plymouth grand voyager.automatic transmission code to replace torque converter clutch solenoid.what is the part #?also in the mean time i lost reverse would this part have an effect on this?
Hello, A TCC Solenoid will not effect reverse unless the clutch is stuck in the applied position. If that were the case the engine would die whenever you put the vehicle in gear.
For a part number contact a local Plymouth Dealer parts counter. They will ask info about the vehicle to determine which tranny you have before they can answer. Some times the VIN is all they'll need.
New User -
here is my situation.the car came up with a code and it indicated this was the part needed.in any event,a little history,the car is in costa rica and i bought it there 8 months ago.from the beginning when you reversed it felt like the brakes were hanging up.now when you put it in reverse it does not engage properly.when you bring up the r.p.m.s' slowly then let off the gas it will then engage.i sent the car to an automatic transmission repair garage yesterday and i am awaiting their diagnostics.in your opinion what it happening?
In my opinion the seals inside the transmission have taken a set and no longer stop fluid from bypassing where a definate seal off is called for.
The result is a delay in time when gear engagement is selected.
There is a bulletin from Chrysler about this subject. It involves using a different material seal during an overhaul.
1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager Electrical / Lighting Systems
New User Asked -
I tried to install an aftermarket radio in my 1996 plymouth voyager....after i completed the install with proper harness....the radio didn't work and my interior lights don't come on when the doors are opened. I reinstalled the factory radio and now it does't work and the interior lights still won't come on when the doors are open. there are no blown fuses... any ideas???
Double check to make sure you didn't leave a wire off when reconnecting the original radio. Also inspect the connector for pin damage (bent, etc).
Be sure to test the fuses with a test light, use one end on a known good ground and the other to one side of the fuse and then the other. Be sure to check all fuses.
has been stalling on the highway only - if I wait for 15 minutes it will start up and get me home. I replaced spark plugs and wires, cap and rotor and checked all hoses on vacuum system. I have a code reader and the only codes I get are PO300 and also PO302 & PO304 which all have to do with misfires, I understand the engine can misfire for a number of things(I have checked all that I know) Does this sound like a fuel pump or??? 1996 3.0 V-6 160,000 miles
Sorry for the delay, the site went down on my end for a while.
It sounds more like the crank sensor, although still could be the fuel pump. You will need to experience the failure in a safe enough area to check for spark. Do you have spark?
You can also listen to see if you hear the fuel pump run when you initially turn the key on and during engine cranking. This is the humming sound you hear from the fuel tank.
The misfires can set for a variety of reasons, most notably an overdue tune-up with new plugs and plug wires. If by chance you have a failing fuel pump, they could also be lean misfires from lack of fuel supply.
Tony Granville -
Thanks for the reply- I have experienced this 4 or 5 times now- always on the highway. I do have spark and I can hear the pump come to pressure when I turn the key on, that is why this is frustrating. I do know enough about small engines to know you need spark and fuel. I did replace the plugs and wires, cap and rotor and still have the problem. Remember this happens at highway speeds after warm-up (15 minutes) everytime I will let it cool about 20 minutes and then restart and I will head to a gas station and fill the tank, even though it happens with over a half tank of gas, it will only take 7 to 8 gallons-this is what makes it so strange. I have read that the fuel pump will continue to work sporadically before it quits altogether??
I will check the crank sensor for now.
You have confirmed spark during the no start period?
Have you been able to check fuel injector pulse?
Does the engine sputter to a stop, or turn off just as if a switch was flipped?
Tony Granville -
Hi Douglas- I have not checked fuel injector pulse, but as I said the fuel pump comes up to pressure when I turn the key on.
The engine will sputter to a stop and I can drive on the shoulder for 1/4 mile before it quits. After it cools and starts back up it will sputter and spit while I drive to a gas station. After I fill the tank and let it cool for 30 minutes then I can drive right home. It has never ran out of gas and as I said before I end up just topping off the tank before I can finally drive home.
Have you ruled out an exhaust restriction (plugging catalytic converter)?
Tony Granville -
Why a plugged catalytic converter and how does it get plugged
Just one more thing to consider. If you have spark, fuel pressure, and injector pulse during the no-start period this is the next thing to look at.
There are different ways it can become plugged, most notably an overdue tune-up or poor fuel quality.
Tony Granville -
How do I go about cleaning or unplugging the catalytic converter?
They must be replaced if plugged. In a safe environment, look at the exhaust after driving at night. It will glow red between the catalytic converter and engine if it is the problem.
Please let me know what you have checked so far so I can be of more help.
Tony Granville -
1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE 160,000 has been stalling on the highway only. - if I wait for 15 minutes it will start up and get me home. I replaced spark plugs and wires, cap and rotor and checked all hoses on vacuum system. I have a code reader and the only codes I get are PO300 and also PO302 & PO304 which all have to do with misfires, I understand the engine can misfire for a number of things(I have checked all that I know) Does this sound like a fuel pump or??? I have experienced this 4 or 5 times now- always on the highway. I do have spark and I can hear the pump come to pressure when I turn the key on, that is why this is frustrating. I do know enough about small engines to know you need spark and fuel. I did replace the plugs and wires, cap and rotor and still have the problem. Remember this happens at highway speeds after warm-up (15 minutes) everytime I will let it cool about 20 minutes and then restart and I will head to a gas station and fill the tank, even though it happens with over a half tank of gas, it will only take 7 to 8 gallons-this is what makes it so strange. I dont think I need to top off the tank with fuel, this just lets it cool down longer and then it will start back up.
You really have to check the things I've mentioned to get to the bottom of the problem. You'll have to verify fuel pressure and fuel injector pulse (with a noid light).
Also check to see if the exhaust may be restricted, do you need further instruction on how to test?
I wish to help you, but please understand there can be more than one cause and trouble shooting is necessary to avoid replacement of the wrong parts.
Tony Granville -
Douglas I will go over these things again and rule out each one
Tony Granville -
I thought i had this taken care of until it stalled again on the highway after about 20 minutes of driving. I let it cool down and started and ran for about 2 miles, then same thing let it cool then drove for 2-3 miles. Finally i got it to the gas station and filled the tank and now it runs fine. The last 2 separate times this happened the same way, and then i filled the gas tank and it runs fine - till the tank reaches half a tank and it warms up too much-then i repeat the cycle (cool down, fill with gas) then it runs fine till the fuel gauge hits one half. Every time it stalls out I get the same code readings on computer PO300, PO304, PO306 all misfire codes.
Could this be a fuel filter clogged or maybe the catalytic converter? Please Help
The catalytic converter will begin to glow in darkness if it is plugging. Have you checked this?
If the fuel filter is overdue, change it.
Tony Granville -
I installed a new fuel filter-not as hard as i thought. I drove on the highway for 140 miles before the check engine light came on. I did make it home without stalling, my code reader says the same thing over and over again: PO304 cylinder #4 misfire(sometimes PO300 multiple cylinders) but 8 out of 10 times just #4 cylinder. The fact that it didn't stall and die on me again is good, but i don't feel very secure in letting my wife go very far on her own. Any ideas? Are we back to the catalytic converter again? Help!
You can also do a test on the catalytic converter with a vacuum gauge, do you have one?
When you first start to experience the problem will the engine run worse (or cut completely out) if you floor the accelerator? The engine requires more fuel to run in this situation, if fuel supply is inadequate it'll surely run worse.
Have you made sure plug wires and coil are okay.
Tony Granville -
I don't have a vacuum gauge but i can get one. I changed the spark plugs, plug wires, rotor and distributor cap early on when i first started having this problem. When the problem first starts it sputters and cuts out like its starved for fuel, i then pump and floor the accelerator and it continues to sputter then lurches forward like its got fuel again, then finally cuts out and dies. It never starts right back up. If i let it sit and cool down say 10 minutes or so then it will start back up and either runs or continues the spitten and sputter cycle over again-but it always gets me home if i let it cool enough. I dont know what to think-like i said it hasn't stalled out since i replaced the fuel filter but the code comes up everytime i drive it for long enough to come to temperature.
1994 Plymouth Grand Voyager Fuel System Won't Start When starting Always
New User Asked - kaptnzog -
The only info I'm getting is the vehicle won't start.This site has changed and some of the information needed is not provided to try and help on your diagnostic.If you haven't resolved your problem,give me some more info and we'll see if we can track it down.
I have a 94 GRand Voyager with 185K miles. Drove to work. End of day started right up. Put into gear (reverse) and stalled. Put back into park. Put into gear stall. Tried drive, stall. Can rev, engine no problems sounds normal. Read codes end of last week. P0300, P301 and P1391. Last time I had P1391, the car would not even start without replacement of the cam shaft sensor. I do not think this is the problem. Could this be fuel pump?
New User -
The car starts up again easily between each stall when put into gear and then back to drive, but stalls dead, like, right now...when put into any gear.
If you press firmly on the brake and press the gas slightly (to raise the rpm's a little) does the engine still stall? Do so safely, noting the vehicle could attempt to lurch forward. Avoid this test if a safe area is not available. Let me know if it happens to stall as if the transmission is fully engaging forcing the engine to stall.
Is this indeed a 1994 with OBD2 diagnostics?
If the engine runs strong when you rev it in park, especially at higher rpm's, this would indicate there is at least enough fuel supply to power the vehicle from a stand still. No indication of a fuel pump problem at this point.
Try clearing the codes and see which, if any, codes come back. I assume there were no pending trouble codes.
New User -
Okay, you can kick my rear. It is a 1996 van. The car will stall regardless of the amount of fuel you give it. But since it has a torque converter I would have thought putting it in gear would not stall the engine. It not a clutch after all. What are your thoughts here? Almost seems like an electronic switch is preventing the engine from running once it's in gear.
Sometimes the torque converter clutch solenoid sticks on and stalls the engine just like a manual transmission without depressing the clutch when coming to a stop. By design, it locks up at highway speed to save fuel, when it fails to unlock there is a problem. It appears this is not the case and you are shutting off just as someone flipped a switch.
Try a wiggle test with the engine idling. Use extreme caution around moving engine parts!! Use, say a broom stick, to wiggle the the wires to the crank/cam sensor to see if this recreates the stall. Remember you can't be to careful!
New User -
Checking over the wiring on the cam and crank sensors was something I have not had a chance to do yet. Probably will not do it until this weekend.
Is there anything else I can check?
New User -
FYI, I was able to push the van across the parking lot to another space to get it out of the way. Car was in "N" at the time. Would't this negate the torque converter unlock failure senario?
If the engine was not stumbling to a stop, the torque converter lock-up is not likely.
New User -
Is there a way to check the Torque Conv. lock-up feature just to rule this out completely? The engine does not stumble to a stop at all.
If the vehicle was on a lift (tires off the ground) there would not be enough weight holding the tires back and the tires would spin instead of causing the engine to stall.
If you start the engine and shift to reverse, does the engine still stall?
New User -
Initially the car did stall after I put it into the air. However, on a second try I was able to put it into gear in both reverse and drive.
Afterward I dropped it back to the ground and tried again to drop it into gear and it did not stall although I could tell something was up with the trans. Drove around the block and watched the tachometer as it shifted from drive to overdrive after reaching high gear and back out after I tapped the brakes. So, the overdrive solenoid is not the trouble or was stuck and became un-stuck once I got it off the ground. I am going to drive it home (about 30 miles) and change the fluid (tranny) and see what I've got afterward. I suspect now I've got something happening with the transmission.
At 185K I am not sure what a used or rebuilt trans may run, but it may be more than I want to invest in what I currently use as my "to work and back" transportation.
If you can tell me what this might be based on the descrip. above please let me know or ask me something else and I'll try to get a straight answer for us.
I will post again if anything happens during or after the trip back home that is worth noting.
We certainly need a current problem to continue troubleshooting, with the exeption of the wiggle test. Wiggle wiring harnesses' etc, under the hood while the engine is running okay. If you can recreate the stall it indicates a problem (the wiggle/tug/etc on wires recreates the engine & trans 'flex' that happens when you shift gear. Worn engine mounts can make problems worse, but faulty wiring & design (wires to short) are just as likely IF there is a problem here.
IF the lock-up solenoid is found to be bad this should not require complete transmission replacement. The vehicle can be driven with this disconnected, although gas mileage will decrease, engine light will illuminate, and trans fluid will run a bit hotter. It is only recommended to disconnect for test purposes.
I'm not sure, when test driving were you able to tell when the TCC lock and unlocks? At a certain speed it will lock and rpm's will drop slightly. When it disengages rpm's will raise slightly (tapping the brake will turn the TCC Off, when functioning properly).
New User -
Well, I got it home but not without it acting a little funny especially at idle, slowing down for a stop light or stopping completely in traffic. Hiccups and one stall.
Dropped the trans. oil pan when I got home....Got small pins (1/4" long, 1/16" dia) and quite a few crushed pieces mixed on and the magnet covered with metal shaving fines. I've changed the oil one this thing several times and never had any thing but the smallest amount of fines.
Anyway, I know next to nothing about transmissions, so I am going to call the mech and get a price quote to replace and then make a decision about how to proceed. Thanks very much for the pointers.
1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager Engine Chugging When idling Always
New User Asked -
Engine seems to be missing when idling,
The intensity of the miss fire appears to be worse when engine is warm as it is almost not perceivable when first started from cold. I have removed and plugged off the EGR at the manifold ,checked every hose for vacuum loss ,used propane to check for vacuum loss,replaced all sparkplugs exchanged the DIS coil with a known good one,cleaned the AIS and throtle body plates ,used the correct paper spacers to reset the gap on the crank and cam senser,inspected miscelaneuos wires and connectors etc. Replaced the O2 sensor yet I still cannot seem to get rid of this miss fire. Some times it does seem worse than other times tho even when warm. I have checked for engine codes I get a code 12 (which from reading doesn't seem to exist for my year vehicle,and a code 55( which means end of check. But I cannot get any closer to a solution Any Ideas ? Thanks
Your description matches the symptoms of either low compression or a weak fuel injector. Do a compression test. If that is OK, add propane to the intake to see if it smooths out. If so, then your fuel injection is the problem.
New User -
Sorry I forgot ro add that I did a compression check and I had all cylinders between 150 and 160 psi,I have also checked the fuel pressure and regulator all seems OK as fuel pressure was measured at the rail and found to be approx 45psi. If the propane is added and it smooths out is there any way I can narrow which of the six injectors it may be that is weak? Also would I be able to use a hand held propane torch to supply adequate enough propane?
The hand held torch will have a restrictor orifice that will prohibit sufficient fuel to run the engine.
The proper way to test injectors is to use a pressure guage and an injector pulser to measure indirectly the amount of fuel each is injecting in the same number of milliseconds.
You may be able to do a cylinder balance test by disconnecting your idle speed wire and then disconnecting the injectors one at a time to determine which one is helping the least.
You can also check the electrical resistance of each injector, they should be with 1/2 ohm of each other. You can listen with a stethoscope to hear if there is a difference in the distinctness of its operation.
If you have a dirty injector, you may be able to improve it with several tanks of injector cleaner, or a professional "motor vac".
New User -
Hello I would like to thank you for your assistance. I will also try your balance test with the IAS motor harness disconnected. I have tried so many things that I had done I forgot to mention I also did an injector pressure bleed down test( the pressure held fine for 10 hrs)and I also listened to the injectors with a stethascope they all sounded exactly alike and no unevenss. When I had the plenum off the intake I also observed the fuel discharge from each injector as well all seemd identical in spray pattern and force when I turned it over by cranking.
So I shall try your suggestion , I almost forgot I did manage to obtain a very large source of unrestricted propane to try via a salamander torch regulator and hose ,so I will also give that a try too. If all proves fruitless I'll hit the intake with a huge soaking in solvent at the gasket joint and cross my fingers for a change in idle condition. I figure with all of this done I have just about exhausted all my resources except for perhaps plugging the exhaust manifold outlet and blanking the inlet with the throttle body removed and then pumping in some propane under pressure then using a gas sniffer to find an intake leak I may have missed.
Tha done and I am not successful well I gues it is off to the dealer.....maybe.
1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager Chassis / Suspension & Steering
Vinny Asked -
I have a 1993 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE 3.3 liter FWD 119" wheel base. I'll bring you up to date on what's been going on. About 3 months ago I changed the two front calipers on this vehicle because the passenger side pads were wearing faster than the driver side so I felt changing both calipers were in order. No problem. Re-bled the system, etc. No sooner did I go to drive the car and the shit started to hit the fan.
At first the ABS light was staying on and then the brake warning light was coming on and the pump actuator would run for a little while and both lights would then go out. Okay that's normal. NOT. Over the next few weeks the two lights would always come on at start up and progressively stayed on longer and longer and the actuator pump ran longer and longer as well. Now for about two weeks both lights are both on continuously and the actuator pump runs constantly. Amazingly the pump has not burned out and I have not managed to kill myself or anybody else with the tremendously hard break pedal and relatively long braking time needed to stop. I do however try to keep my travel with this car limited to short runs for this reason.
So now I have gathered some information online, from my manual and at the dealership on what the problem might be and came to the conclusion that not enough pressure is accumulating in the accumulator and/or the actuator pump is not doing it's job. So I spent my $800.00 and purchased and installed both the accumulator and actuator pump and bled the brakes as normally you should.
I figured everything would return to normal when I turned the key. But NOOOOO. In fact I was better off the old way. At least I had some kind of control on the braking.
Now I still have both lights illuminated constantly, an accuator pump that still is buzzing like crazy but now the brake pedal has some power assist but is eratic and unreliable. Needless to say it not operating correctly. So, with a pretty good understanding of the Bendix 10 ABS brake system I thought that perhaps air is trapped somewhere from the newly installed accumulator back to the newly installed actuator pump and that could be the problem. But then I thought that if I am getting power assist at the brake pedal then the pressurized actuator pump fluid is getting to the Master cylinder. So the theory of trapped air might not be right. Then I learned that the notorious Bendix 10 system has 10 solenoids or whatever they call them that could trap air in them within the Master cylinder. I don't know. Bleeding the brakes at the wheels perhaps might not quite be the right way to get all the trapped air out. I went out and purchased an OBD I code scanner and is on it's way along with the necessary SCI and LH series cables to get the fault code or codes from the ABS system to tell me what I already know perhaps. I was also ready to go and purchase a new Hydraulic Assembly and that's where you come in. Because if you think the accumulator and the actuator pump were expensive the Hydraulic Assembly costs more then those two units combined. So I figured I'd spend $20.00 instead of my children's inheretance and get somebody who most likely knows more than I do about these F***ing ABS systems. Hopefully you know some special trick on this subject or I just overlooked something I should have done. At this point I'm kind of lost to what to do next. PS--the damn car isn't worth the $800 dollars I just put into it but at the same token it's better than a new $400.00 a month car loan :)
The OBD I unit should be here by Thursday of this week. With your expert help we can try some other things until it arrives if you feel you have an idea of what to do. I hope this is a simple problem. Get back to me. Thanks. Vinny. Vinnyrf@aol.com
It seems the vehicle would be safer with the anti-lock brake system deactivated for the time being (unplug the controller.) This should give you conventional brakes (that is about where by personal fix would end but I cannot recommend some else does the same!)
If the problem occured immediately after parts replacement, check that the speed sensors/wiring having been bothered/damaged during the installation. Start here and we'll continue.
Personally I'd buy used parts when the price gets as high as your dealing with. I bet you could get all the big dollar parts for under $100 with a little shopping.
The ABS light is illuminated all the time now which already indicates the ABS system is already deactivated. For what it's worth I will do whatever you tell me to do. Please indicate via an illistration link which control module or relay I should disconnect to ensure the ABS system is terminated?
I went to every junk yard on Long Island and the ABS parts I bought were nowhere to be found. I finally wound up at the dealer only because I'm a bit uneasy about spending those kind of numbers over the internet. Let's hope I don't have to go to much deeper.
I don't know if it was a mistake on their part (or something less honest) but only in cases of intentional damage, etc should the dealer be selling [certain] abs parts. Copy and Paste following link into your address bar--
Enter your VIN number to view documents and call the 800 number.
File Date 6/18/1996
Mfr. Involved CHRYSLER CORPORATION
NHTSA Campaign # 96V099000
Mfr. Campaign # 685
Component Affected SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:ANTILOCK
# Vehicles Affected 321000
Defect THE ABS HYDRAULIC CONTROL UNIT CAN EXPERIENCE EXCESSIVE BRAKE ACTUATOR PISTON SEAL WEAR CAUSING PUMP-MOTOR DETERIORATION.
Consequence IF THIS CONDITION OCCURS, THE ABS FUNCTION COULD BE LOST AND REDUCED POWER ASSIST WOULD BE EXPERIENCED DURING VEHICLE BRAKING INCREASING THE POTENTIAL FOR A VEHICLE ACCIDENT.
Corrective Action DEALERS WILL TEST THE VEHICLE'S ANTI-LOCK BRAKE SYSTEM AND REPAIR THE VEHICLES IF NECESSARY. ALSO THE WARRANTY ON ALL ABS COMPONENTS WILL BE EXTENDED TO 10 YEARS OR 100,000 MILES (EXCEPT FOR THE BRAKE ACTUATOR PISTON ASSEMBLY AND THE PUMP-MOTOR ASSEMBLY WHICH WILL HAVE A LIFETIME COVERAGE). OWNERS WILL ALSO BE REIMBURSED FOR PREVIOUS ABS COMPONENT REPAIR COSTS.
Yes, I am aware of the recall and that the actuator pump carries a lifetime warranty. It's a long story on why I chose to buy it anyway and put it in myself. More importantly is that the dealer and I spoke about the recall and nobody got over on me. Everything is cool as far as that goes.
Vehicle was running fine and then I washed the engine with cleaner and water, which I had done many times previously. Everything seemed to be working ok running in the garge. Then I took it out on the road ans the transmission wasn't shifting. I then stopped and the vehicle would not restart. Engine turned over but seemed to be getting no fuel. I assume the ECM may have been damaged by water, but I don't know why the transmission wasn't shifting. I am interested in what may be wrong and what the shop cost to repair may be.
Hi, It could be as easy as using compressed air to blow water out of electrical connectors.
Do you have an air compressor?
Do you need something else on this question? If not please click on OK to finish up.
1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager Fuel System Won't Start Always
JeffBox Asked -
I have an interesting problem with a Grand Voyager that my son drives.
He came home from a trip a few days ago, went inside the house a few minutes, and came back out to leave. The van would crank, but not start.
The next day, I checked for spark (OK), compression (OK), and fuel pressure (none).
Using the factory service manual, I traced the wiring back to a connector on the driver side frame near the tank filler neck. At this location, there is a 4 conductor connector. Two of the leads go to the fuel gauge sender and the other 2 power the pump.
With the engine cranking, I measured 12 volt power on the pump power leads. I also did an ohmmeter reading on the pump itself and got an infinite resistance reading.
Thus, looks pretty much like a pump replacement is called for.
Dropping the tank to accomplish that is beyond what I can do at the house, so I took the car over to Pep Boys. To do this, I wacked the bottom (with a 2-by4) of the fuel tank while it was cranking and it started up and got us there.
Pep Boys quoted me about $190 for the installed replacement and I told them to proceed. They were also to do a front end alignment.
The pump was replaced and the vehicle backed out and parked. The next morning it started and was pulled up to the alignment rack. The fellow shut it off to open the garage door. Then he could not get it to restart.
Further testing showed no fuel pressure and infinite electrical resistance on the wires to the new pump. Looks like an out-of-box failure of the new pump.
So they replaced it again. It started up, the mechanic drove it around. Started and stopped engine a few times and guess what: New Pump #2 also fails. Same way...open on the power leads.
Tomorrow, they are getting another pump from a different manufacturer and trying it. Have you ever heard of anything like this...is there something else that could cause multiple pump failures?
Filter was replaced a year ago. When the engine is running, power is fine.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
What brand of fuel pump were they using?
I don't have that information at the moment.
The pump is a "rebuilt" As I recall, the box had a glossy dark blue and black theme to it. I can check the brand tomorrow. (Its whatever Pep Boys is selling in Dallas)
I also had the opportunity to apply my ohmmeter to both of the newly failed pumps and they read infinite resistance right on the spade log terminals. Yet, each did work briefly for a few minutes. (The resistance was infinite between the terminals and from each terminal to the metal pump case.)
It was also interesting that they did not fail while running. The engine did not loose fuel pressure and stall.
In each case, it was when the engine was stopped and then attempted to be restarted that the failure was discovered.
The mechanic is not too surprised by this. He recalls one case where he did 3 replacements on voyager that all failed....then he insisted that his management get a unit from the chrysler dealer and it worked OK.
The only aftermarket parts that I've seen fail more frequently than fuel pumps is spark plug wires. Walbro brand aftermarket pumps are the only non-dealer pumps I've seen backed by mechanics. I have never seen or heard of pump failure that quickly, nor have I installed a pep boys brand pump.
Dallas must be nice, in ny we just weathered minus 35 wind chills."
John, thanks for the comment.
Back to the original question... Are you aware of any other problems in the vehicle that would cause fuel pump failures?
If not, we must be dealing with a pile of bad pumps. I am simply trying to see if there is something else to look for.
I am not aware of any problems with the Voyager. Any idea how much gasoline was in the tank when the failures occurred? The fuel pump is kept cool by the gasoline in the tank. If the engine is ran with a low fuel level the pump will not be cooled properly. When the pumps get hot they have a tendancy to fail. This is especially the case with aftermarket pumps. Get them hot and there's a good chance they'll fail.
In somewhat rare cases the tank can be internally flawed so that fuel don't reach the body of the pump as it should. I never seen this happen with this vehicle.
Another maybe is if the tech failed to install the fuel pump 'sock' filter or reused a flawed filter coupled with debris in the tank. If debris enter the pump it will fail quickly.
Also could inspect fuel lines for a restriction that could make the pump work to hard. Inspect the sending unit also for any damage.
It's wise to install a new fuel filter with a new pump.
You can check to see if there's any TSB's (technical service bulletins) from chrysler that may apply. I glanced but didn't see any, although I was unsure of engine size. Here is the only free site I know of that offers tsb's-
It's also recommended not to drive under 1/4 a tank of fuel frequently. Especially near empty.
1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager Chassis / Suspension & Steering
New User Asked -
when steering the van it turns real hard .hard to turn wheels when van is runnning and sitting still,not moving .
Hello, Is the power steering fluid full, the belt that drives the pump tight, the engine idle speed correct, and have the steering linkage parts been lubed through their greese zerks, tire pressure okay?
If all is in order a replacement pump may be needed.
3.0 V6 Sometimes engine is hard to start, if I push the accelerator a little it will start, but will not idle. After a while it will suddenly run normally. I have remote start on this, and it would be nice if it worked reliably.
Does it make a difference if the engine is cold or not?
Any black smoke from the exhaust when it does start (after failing for a while)? Any gas smell in the oil?
Start by cleaning the throttle body & blade and AIS (idle speed motor) and its passageway into the throttle boy. THis is good maintenance whether it is the problem or not. Use throttle body spray.
When it is cold outside (>30) it will usually start or when it is warm(>60). Usually when the air is 'heavy' is when the problem is worse. Also sometimes when I stop or turn it may die. At other times it runs fine, this has been going on for a while now. I have tried tuneup, filters, clean throttle body, etc.
Sometimes when I start in the morning and it is having one of its fits, if I let it idle very slowly, there will be a pop under the hood and it will suddenly run fine -idle motor sticking?- cleaned it, checked bore where it fits. I do not always hear a pop.
MAP sensor has been replaced and O2 sensor a while back.
I suspect throttle position sensor or a tempature sensor on the engine, your opinion?
These sensors are possible. Do you have a meter to test them? Need instuctions, if you do instructions are available online, I'll give the link for a repair guide.
Look for black smoke from the exhaust when it is doing this. Also smell the oil for any signs of gasoline. Next time try holding the accelerator to the floor and starting. This puts the computer in 'clear flood mode', if your engine is flooded it should start quicker.
BTW- Any check engine light while the engine is running? Have you checked the trouble codes with the 'key on, key off' method?
Yes, if you have test procedures and specs for the sensors I will test them. Also any info on 'how the system works' is appreciated.
Black smoke is difficult to see, the exhaust is on other side. Got my foot on the accelerator. After it decides to run, the exhaust seems normal.
I dont smell any abnormal gasoline in the engine oil.
Check engine light is off. Key code shows 55.
Engine starts right up with a little throttle, just wont idle, if I let it down to aprox 2-300 RPM it will sometimes fix it (900RPM). Dies when I stop or pull into the driveway sometimes.
Lettin the cat out of the bag: I have been a mechanic for IH and Case tractors for some time. I deal with gasoline and diesel, transmissions, electronics, work on my own stuff 95%, accurate information on automotive systems and how-why they work seems harder to get than the Ag line. [b]<>[/b][i]getting close to ranting[/i] ...calm ...better now. Whew that was close!!
Seriously, I appreciate your help in this matter, it has been bugging me for too long.
Sorry for the long text.
It makes it a lot easier to know the capabilities of the customer on the other end. All you need is information, easy. Use the following link to access a repair guide, copy and paste into your address bar.
The above link will lead to a repair guide that is the equivalent of Haynes or Chilton repair manual, but free (always nice). Under 'Emissions' or 'Engine Electrical' you should find information on testing and changing sensors.
I'd start by testing the throttle position sensor.
The reason I keep asking about a rich fuel condition, is to rule out a leaking fuel pressure regulator (will leak gas that is sucked into intake via vacuum line), or a possible leaking injector. It seems the engine 'clears up' at some points, possibly when fuel is burnt off negating a misfire from a flooded condition.
A sticking EGR valve can also cause low idle and very difficult starting. We will get to that later, if needed.
The 2 temp sensors, coolant and air/ (sometimes called intake), simply convey respective temps to the computer. The computer will rich-en the mixture when cold (as you know a cold engine needs more fuel). If the sensors are reading improperly you may not get the rich condition when cold (difficult to start and poor idle). Alternatively if the sensor are always telling the computer the engine is cold, you will run rich when the engine is warm (poor fuel econ.).
Interestlingly enough, I find it nearly impossible to find good information on tractors. Any secrets to share?
BTW- Type as much as you wish.
I have another link for online repair manuals if you'd like it. It covers some newer models that the other link doesn't.
There are also subscriptions services. Two popular ones are about $10 and $25. These are DIYer versions of the two most popular information systems for independent repair facilities. I don't think you need them for this job though, or so I hope. I will give you links to these if you have any interest.
I will check back to see if you replied when I get a chance tomorrow.
Thanks, I have already been to the AutoZone link, pretty generic information there.
Found a lot of information at minimopar.kinziefamily.net - pictures test values, and such.
Wont be able to do any testing this week, we are having evening church meetings all this week.
Vacuum line on fuel pressure regulator is clean. It has been a while, but the fuel pressure was normal.
Most likely, since this is an intermittant problem, it is a 'bad connection' or a component that is failing but is not tested electrically by the ECU.
Since there is no error light or stored codes.
Two things that came to my attention- sticking AIS motor- and failing speed/distance sensor. I am leaning toward the latter, since it contains a small glass reed switch. These are prone to failures of the intermittent kind. I see that they can be changed up to a hall effect type.
Found info that says to rotate the AIS motor pintle - mine wiggles but does not rotate - I do not want to force it- I understand that it is a stepper motor and that it moves in and out to regulate air flow, but does the pintle rotate or stay stationary as it moves?
<<"Interestlingly enough, I find it nearly impossible to find good information on tractors. Any secrets to share?">>
I have found that tractor profesionals are more willing to share information than auto or truck. I think it varies from shop to shop, after all you are giving away potential work. $$$
Anything you need to know about IH or Case, old to current, let me know. I post from time to time on YesterdaysTractors also todaystractors.com
I find information on the internet must be taken 'with a grain of salt' it is difficult even for a good tech to fix a problem long distance. Usually there is incomplete information from the customer or misunderstanding of the problem by the tech, leading to misdiagnosis. Also there is the abliity factor of the customer to fix the problem in the first place. Sometimes you just 'gotta doit yourself' if it is to be done right. Hard to do without hands on.